RYA Subscription Cancelled

[rogerthebodger]

Perhaps you need a national authority like RYA to resist the imposition of excessive bureaucracy and rules on cruising yachts ……….

You are absolutely correct with that statement.

I am taking action with that regard

I have no issue complying with the law of the land but I do object to having to pay good money for the authorities to ensure that I am complying with the law and making unlawful and unreasonable decisions

 

[rogerthebodger]

"clearly" not? You'll see how that's the obvious interpretation of your initial statement? People shouldn't steal the intellectual property of World Sailing by using the RRS without being affiliated, they should instead make up their own rules? Is the only reason my interpretation is clearly wrong my use of "RYA" rather than "National Governing Body" and my assumption that the defined appeal procedure not being available to non-affiliated race organisers was obvious?

This isn't an anti-RYA post: I've never heard them suggest that non-affiliated groups having any kind of race mustn't use the rrs. It just seemed an odd statement from ylop

Ok when anyone enters an event run under the world sailing RRS and has paid the entry fee of the event WS should have given permission for the use to the event organisers.

Now on top of this WS regulation 19 must be complied with. This required all crew to have paid a membership fee to RYA

So RYA World Sailing are getting double income

 

[laika]

Laika - you don’t seem to understand the difference between World Sailing, the national governing bodies affiliated to World Sailing (of which the RYA is just one), and clubs affiliated to the RYA who run events following World Sailing rules.

I do just fine thanks but I don’t seem to have communicated my question well.

*Obviously* one can’t run a race under rules which say you need to be at least indirectly affiliated to a certain body if you’re not and obviously if you were running an unaffiliated race you would not have access to escalation processes which involve that body.

If that’s what you originally meant by needing to make up your own rules, ie excise those bits, then that’s just practically and nothing to do with intellectual property.

It was your statement about violation of Intellectual Property I was questioning: are you saying that a bunch of unaffiliated people wantonly using “when boats meet” for their Sunday race are morally reprehensible IP pirates? Response should not require an essay.

 

[B27]

....

It was your statement about violation of Intellectual Property I was questioning: are you saying that a bunch of unaffiliated people wantonly using “when boats meet” for their Sunday race are morally reprehensible IP pirates? Response should not require an essay.

Yes.
If you're not paying anything into the club system, you're not supporting the sport, but you're still taking from it. All those people racing will have benefitted from clubs and 'the system' putting into the sport, whether it's training them initially or making stuff happen.
It's no big deal because it doesn't happen on a scale which threatens the functioning of the sport.
Just because it's morally wrong doesn't mean I don't condone it in some circumstances or think it should be enforced inflexibly.

The only unaffiliated racing I know of is a few model yachters, some of them are not AFAIK members of any club, but they've probably paid their way over the years.

 

[dunedin]

Ok when anyone enters an event run under the world sailing RRS and has paid the entry fee of the event WS should have given permission for the use to the event organisers.

Now on top of this WS regulation 19 must be complied with. This required all crew to have paid a membership fee to RYA

So RYA World Sailing are getting double income

I think you should perhaps stop posting about RYA and UK racing as this is clearly not your area of expertise. There are some typos in your post as no such thing as “RYA World Sailing”, but other than a few exceptions it has already been clarified multiple times that there is NO requirement to be a personal member of the RYA to enter a race if a member of an affiliated sailing club.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I think you should perhaps stop posting about RYA and UK racing as this is clearly not your area of expertise. There are some typos in your post as no such thing as “RYA World Sailing”, but other than a few exceptions it has already been clarified multiple times that there is NO requirement to be a personal member of the RYA to enter a race if a member of an affiliated sailing club.

1) the RRS are published by World sailing , which I have an old copy of.

2) there is no copyright message in the printed copy I have

3) World sailing regulation 19 require ALL crew to be a paying member or the Nation Member Association (RYA in the UK)

4) paying you fee to enter the event should cover any costs incurred in arranging the event including the requirement to cover any cost of the RRS

5) why should I stop posting do we not have freedom of opinion on this forum all I am doing is expressing my opinion

 

[ylop]

Iaika - you don’t get to dictate how long my responses are and then complain when you don’t understand them.

The document is copyright World Sailing. That’s their IP. Copying the document without permission is a breach of their IP. That will include copying very large sections of the document verbatim. That’s not a World Sailing decision - it’s just the law. It does not prevent anyone else making rules for groups of people sailing round a bunch of bouys. And of course theirs is nothing to stop the practicalities of those rules being very similar (or perhaps even identical) to well established rules. If you copy and paste the exact wording, (and certainly if you just excise sections like radio control, windsurfing, international events) then technically you might be on dodgy ground. In reality I don’t think World Sailing or the RYA have ever tried to stop anyone organising a race using their words outside their auspices? Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be within their rights to. Presumably though if a load of disgruntled ex RYA clubs formed a new body, and started trying to become the recognised NGB or clubbing together with other NGBs and persuade the IOC to recognise them their attitude may be different!

It seems cruisers don’t like the RYA because they are all about racing and racers don’t like the RYA because they are all about racing!

 

[capnsensible]

This chap can help with cruising questions at the RYA.

meet-the-team-stuart-carruthers

 

[ylop]

1) the RRS are published by World sailing , which I have an old copy of.

2) there is no copyright message in the printed copy I have

Firstly copyright applies whether copyright is labelled on an item or not. The current version on the WS website has (c) world sailing Ltd on what would presumably be the inside cover of the printed version.

Just below the link to the RRS on the WS website you will find this: https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRSERS20212024ReproductionPolicy-[26367].pdf

3) World sailing regulation 19 require ALL crew to be a paying member or the Nation Member Association (RYA in the UK)

Regulation 19 doesn’t actually form part of the RRS. But I assume you are referring to this:

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/M0513Appendix3EligibilityCodeRegulation19-[14836].pdf

It doesn’t say what you think it does.

4) paying you fee to enter the event should cover any costs incurred in arranging the event including the requirement to cover any cost of the RRS

That’s an opinion. Surely it’s for an event organiser to decide if an event is open or closed? (Eg imaging a club championship that was open to non members!) or if they want to charge premium to non-members?

5) why should I stop posting do we not have freedom of opinion on this forum all I am doing is expressing my opinion

Which you are stating as facts, and they are wrong.

 

[B27]

Isn't the point with the rules along the lines of an association can only govern its members.
To be subject to the rules you have to be some sort of member,

If two racing boats meet, they need to both be members and hence subject to the racing rules.
If either of them is not a member, colregs apply, with force of law.

I get the impression the people who don't like this don't race anyway?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Isn't the point with the rules along the lines of an association can only govern its members.
To be subject to the rules you have to be some sort of member,

If two racing boats meet, they need to both be members and hence subject to the racing rules.
If either of them is not a member, colregs apply, with force of law.

I get the impression the people who don't like this don't race anyway?

If you are not a member but enter an event and agree to abide by the rules of the event you're governed by the rules anyway

Col regs which I agree is law, supersedes any local rules and regulations

I don't generally race anyway but if I did I would enter in a cruising class anyway

 

[srm]

This chap can help with cruising questions at the RYA.

meet-the-team-stuart-carruthers

Yes, that's the guy who referred me to Google rather than give a reference to the EU document that the RYA based its advice on.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Firstly copyright applies whether copyright is labelled on an item or not. The current version on the WS website has (c) world sailing Ltd on what would presumably be the inside cover of the printed version.

If there is no indication of Copyright on any publication how does anyone know copyrigt exists

Just below the link to the RRS on the WS website you will find this: https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRSERS20212024ReproductionPolicy-[26367].pdf

This states that world copyright subsist in all parts of the world that world sailing is

The copyright laws in different countries can and are different and as such word sailing must comply with the laws in the countries that operate

Regulation 19 doesn’t actually form part of the RRS. But I assume you are referring to this:

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/M0513Appendix3EligibilityCodeRegulation19-[14836].pdf

Yes but they are a regulation that members and associations must comply with

regulation 19.4 state that ISAF eligibility requires entrant's to be a member of the World Sailing NMA

(a) he is a member of his/her Member National Authority (RYA in the UK) or one of its affiliated organizations. Such membership to be established by the competitor either:
(i) by being entered by a national authority of the country of which the competitor is a national or ordinarily a resident; or
(ii) by presenting a valid membership card

That seem very clear to me
https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/M0513Appendix3EligibilityCodeRegulation19-[14836].pdf

It doesn’t say what you think it does.


That’s an opinion. Surely it’s for an event organiser to decide if an event is open or closed? (Eg imaging a club championship that was open to non members!) or if they want to charge premium to non-members?

Regulation 19.6 blocks the event organisers fro doing that if the yes any of the requirements in reg 19.6

Which you are stating as facts, and they are wrong.

I don't think they are wrong I think there are breached of freedoms and equality of the individual

The start of this thread is about sailors do not see the benefit of RYA like I don't see the benefit of world sailing and in fact could be considered as a breach of freedom of association and legislation protecting the consumer form abuse of a dominant position

 

[B27]

Most of this thread is complete out of date nonsense.
19.1 Competition Eligibility
19.1 An individual shall have Competition Eligibility unless that eligibility has been suspended or revoked. 'Competition Eligibility' means the individual has a general entitlement to take part in competition in the sport of sailing.

So, for run of the mill sailing sport, there is no requirement to be a member of anything, the only requirement is not to have been banned.
It's only ISAF events which require some sort of ISAF-related membership to satisfy ISAF.
Organisers can presumably put their own requirements in place, like it's a club event for club members or whatever.

So if you can find any non-affiliated racing to do, ISAF/WS don't mind.

 

[dunedin]

This chap can help with cruising questions at the RYA.

meet-the-team-stuart-carruthers

I believe Stuart Carruthers has recently retired (though I may be wrong) - not heard about any replacement yet

 

[dunedin]

regulation 19.4 state that ISAF eligibility requires entrant's to be a member of the World Sailing NMA

(a) he is a member of his/her Member National Authority (RYA in the UK) or one of its affiliated organizations. Such membership to be established by the competitor either:

How often do you need to repeat the same info - “or one of its affiliated organisations”. So as has been pointed no need to be a personal member of the RYA to race in the UK, if a member of an affiliated sailing club.
And as club volunteers put a lot of time and effort into running events, seems fair enough.

 

[awol]

I believe some MNAs will disqualify from races run under their aegis any sailor who takes part in non- MNA sanctioned events.
Another thought - events like th3 3 Peaks run under IRPCS - do they count as "racing" for insurance purposes?

 

[penberth3]

If there is no indication of Copyright on any publication how does anyone know copyrigt exists

Copyright exists automatically. You should never assume otherwise.

 

[Sailfree]

quango or qango?

These things matter in scrabble.

We need a a National organisation to sort thee things

 

[SailingDog]

Agreed, 5 year old English Harbour rum for me thanks.