Trial Sail

[DeeGee]

I have a potential buyer here in France. He is asking if he can hire the boat for a weekend, but of course that is not allowed on my insurance. But it does raise the question: does one arrange a trial sail on a second-hand boat? When I bought Black Sugar, I had a trial sail on a number of NEW boats, arranged through the vendors of the different marques. In that way, I identified what boat I wanted to buy and assumed that one Such and such would be the same as any other same spec.

The second part to the question applies to potential buyers coming in their flocks (I wish!) from UK. Should they ask for a trial sail, what should I do?

When I bought Black Sugar (second owner) I went over her from stem to stern and then paid for a surveyor to redo the job. I didn't ask to put her in the water, but that could be just me!

Perhaps the answer is to make it clear that I am open to an offer which can be 'subject to satifactory demonstration of no leaks when in the water for X hours and the sails are as described'. In other words, only when a firm offer is to hand. What does the team think? Also, what is the general practice?

 

[Cobra]

Morning Denbigh! When we sold 'Endy' at the start of the season, the arrangement that the broker had in place was that trial sail would follow after a survey had been booked and paid for by the prospective purchaser. The thinking being that the purchaser had to be serious to have a survey done, and thus we were not plagued with trial sails...as it happened the chap who bought her had her surveyed and was happy with me crewing for him to take her to her new home...as it transpired he didn't even take up that offer! Have a chat with Adrian Espin at Eastern Yachts...a good broker with no airs and graces!!

 

[Monique]

Agree with Cobra. Let the buyer put his cash up front. Then you can offer a free sail trial if the survey is already paid.

GL with the sale

 

[Deleted member 36384]

If I was in your shoes and someone phoned me from France and said they were interested in buying my boat and made the effort to come to Scotland I would of course give them the trial sail with no preconditions. Out for a day sail only though.

However, like the other posters, I would not offer that automatically for local buyers. Note I would consider it for local buyers and likely offer it for say, people coming up from the South Coast. In my case the boat is not likely to be in the top 100 best sellers list, so I would be encouraging anyone who was interested from afar.

I guess its a case of how best to facilitate the selling process; accommodating, fully hands off, something in between? One thing is for sure, these days you just dont know who has the cash.

 

[Tranona]

Depends on the purpose of the "trial sail". If the potential buyer just wants to find out if he likes the boat, then probably no. You are selling your private property so you need to formalise a contract that commits the buyer before he can do anything to your boat that is likely to cause it any damage - eg a survey. It is not unreasonable to have a short sea trial to confirm everything is in order as a condition of final payment, but it has to be at the buyers cost - eg you may want a professional skipper to conduct the trial, or you may do it yourself.

If you are doing the selling yourself, you may judge that the potential buyer could turn into a firm buyer if you took him out for a short demonstration, but don't think you should offer this at an early stage.

BTW, don't think the distance the buyer has travelled has anything to do with the principle. By all means do everything to ensure he has enough time to get all the information he needs to avoid additional travel. However, I would guess with a niche boat like yours you are unlikely to get tyre kickers. Usually I would think buyers of this type of boat know what they want and the visit is to check out whether the condition and equipment matches up to their expectations.

 

[Talbot]

I had a trial sail on my new boat (pre-owned). It was after the deposit and the same timescale as the survey. Deposit was dependent on satisfactory survey and trial. No real problems with either.

 

[haydude]

Sea Trial

When I purchased a boat second hand the sea trial was allowed by the broker only after I paid a deposit. I suppose this is done to discourage sailing requests from non seriously interested viewers. It is also a reassurance that the boat has not been bashed by several other trials before the purchase.

The Sea Trial was arranged before the Survey and it was the only stage in the process where I could have had my deposit back only if I did not like how the boat sailed.

It is essential not so much to experience the characteristics of the design but rather to discover any potential faults in the boat, the steering, the rigging, the sail, the engine, that could not otherwise be spotted by a survey on a static vessel. It is essential also to assess if the vessel is "ready to sail" in the first place.

 

[Searush]

I bought both my boats "as seen" but the prices were reasonable anyway. When I sold my first boat I was happy to take the prospective buyer & his wife out for an evening sail. But he had already decided to buy when he was waiting at Ardrishaig & saw me sail her up singlehanded with the cruising chute up & round up against the wall to throw him a line. Basically, he had just watched his dream sail into his life!

But it was awful hard for us to drive away at the end of the holiday, leaving our boat behind.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Always sold privately and on all but one occasion bought privately. None have involved a trial sail - its unnecessary when you are buying ma class boat which is well known. So I would not agree to trial sails but then I've always found it better to sell the boat out of the water. You can't go launching and recovering boats for trial sails.

 

[Spyro]

I think he is chancing his arm asking for a free weekend hire. By all means take a potential buyer out for few hours after all it will show him that you have nothing to hide and will encourage him to make an offer. A trial sail doesn't need to be anything more than that. When I sold my previous boat I sold it privately i.e. not through a broker so when I had to show people the boat it wasn't much more bother to take them out for an hour or two.
Maybe he is wanting to try out the berths and see if he gets a good nights sleep

 

[LadyInBed]

Hi Denbigh, so you are selling Black Sugar!
Are you going to look for something that has the ability go backwards
Regards to Bon,
Nigel

 

[Dockhead]

When I was trying to buy an Oyster 485 year before last, I tried to charter one of the candidate boats for a week in order to really get to know the boat before plunking down the considerable slab of cash it would have cost to buy her. This boat was in Spain and was in commission.

My offer was to pay the owner the full commercial value of a week's charter which would be credited against the purchase price in case the deal went through, and which he would keep otherwise.

I thought it was a fair offer. But he told me to b*gger off. LOL.

I think there could be absolutely nothing better from the buyer's point of view than to do something like this. No survey, and certainly no three hour sea trial will ever uncover the real condition of the boat like living with her for a week.

So I perfectly understand the request.

As a seller, you face the disadvantage that the list of hidden defects you palm off on the buyer undetected (and there is no yacht sale, new or used, without this) will be much shorter.

If it were a general custom, however, there would be no big competitive disadvantage to the buyers. I think it would be excellent if this type of thing were to be generally accepted. Insurance companies might have to grant some kind of exception for it, however.

 

[PaulJS]

When I was trying to buy an Oyster 485 year before last, I tried to charter one of the candidate boats for a week in order to really get to know the boat before plunking down the considerable slab of cash it would have cost to buy her. This boat was in Spain and was in commission.

My offer was to pay the owner the full commercial value of a week's charter which would be credited against the purchase price in case the deal went through, and which he would keep otherwise.

I thought it was a fair offer. But he told me to b*gger off. LOL.

I think there could be absolutely nothing better from the buyer's point of view than to do something like this. No survey, and certainly no three hour sea trial will ever uncover the real condition of the boat like living with her for a week.

So I perfectly understand the request.

As a seller, you face the disadvantage that the list of hidden defects you palm off on the buyer undetected (and there is no yacht sale, new or used, without this) will be much shorter.

If it were a general custom, however, there would be no big competitive disadvantage to the buyers. I think it would be excellent if this type of thing were to be generally accepted. Insurance companies might have to grant some kind of exception for it, however.

As a sailing novice, and a prospective "used yacht" buyer I think this is a good compromise. A prospective purchaser can't seriously expect a free weeks charter.
One thing though, the seller would need to be satisfied with the prospective purchaser's competence before letting him loose with what is a hefty slice of cash...

 

[lw395]

The insurance side of things can probably be sorted.
Talking to a good broker might be best.
A trial sail is probably worthwhile in terms of checking engine, steering, sails, electrics etc, if the boat is already in commission. But it's not that common in my limited experience.
You could have an absolute fiasco with 2 or 3 minor failures, which would stop you sailing, but say nothing of the general condition of the boat. These things should be picked up at survey of course.

A sale is a deal between two consenting parties, whatever can be agreed between them is fine.

I don't think chartering for a week is likely to work unless the boat is in charter service already, the work of coding the boat is immense. If the boat is off being trialled, no one else can view it, so the seller will want a pretty good expectation of completing the sale.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Not quite that simple.

a) A boat has to be coded before charter. Many non-charter boats are not equipped to coding standards, so lots of pre-sale expense for the owner to get it up to code

b) Boat is not available to other potential buyers while prospects are out sailing it

c) any damage caused during charter - even though insured - will take time to put right, thus effectively taking the boat off the market

Altogether, a thoroughly bad idea.

 

[Tranona]

My offer was to pay the owner the full commercial value of a week's charter which would be credited against the purchase price in case the deal went through, and which he would keep otherwise.

I thought it was a fair offer. But he told me to b*gger off. LOL.

Not surprised you were refused. It would be illegal for one thing, unless the boat was already coded for charter.

The method of buying SH boats - offer, contract, survey, renegotiationb if necessary is very well established and is clearly satisfactory for most people. Remember when you are buying SH you are buying somebody's private property - it is not the same as buying from a builder or dealer who is in the business to make a profit asnd then has obligations even after the transaction has taken place.

 

[bbg]

DeeGee,

In a sale between two private individuals, anything goes. As I understand it from other threads, you need to sell your boat. If this guy is the only interested party, why not go out for a day's sail?

It might be nice to get a deposit first, or even an offer subject to satisfactory test sail. But if it isn't too inconvenient for you, and it is a nice day, you will at least get a day on the water which is better than a day not on the water. And possibly you'll sell your boat.

Edit - comments above apply if the boat is in-commission and ready to go, not sitting on the hard.

 

[DeeGee]

OK, I think most of the opinions posted are reinforcing my view. I should have said that my boat is out on the hard for the winter, with sails off as reqd by insurance, and trial sailing would involve launch and recovery which always leaves more small scratches on my hull. It seemed to me that boat on the hard is much easier for the survey and now I will only give a trial sail after survey, or when an offer has been made and accepted. Here in France, an offer and acceptance are legally enforcable on either side. His offer must be made conditional on the boat not leaking and sails as described.

For the Scot - I should add that I am in France as well, so the interested party is local.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Hi Denbigh.

Having sold a 36 myself I have a view on this.

1. If the prospective purchaser doesn't know what a Rustler 36 is like, based on reputation, then a short charter is not going to convince him. In fact, if he is not used to a long keel boat it may put him off.
2. Even in a week the chances that he will experience the sort of severe conditions that the boat excels in are very low, so there is little point. In any case, you do not want a stranger taking your boat out in bad conditions.
3. Even at commercial charter rates, even if it was legal, it is madness. You would have no control over what he does. He could change anything and you would not know.

Offer to take him out for a day. If he still is not convinced offer to take him out for 2 days. If that isn't enough he just wants a holiday and you should let him do that on someone else's boat.

 

[sailorman]

I have a potential buyer here in France. He is asking if he can hire the boat for a weekend, but of course that is not allowed on my insurance. But it does raise the question: does one arrange a trial sail on a second-hand boat? When I bought Black Sugar, I had a trial sail on a number of NEW boats, arranged through the vendors of the different marques. In that way, I identified what boat I wanted to buy and assumed that one Such and such would be the same as any other same spec.

The second part to the question applies to potential buyers coming in their flocks (I wish!) from UK. Should they ask for a trial sail, what should I do?

When I bought Black Sugar (second owner) I went over her from stem to stern and then paid for a surveyor to redo the job. I didn't ask to put her in the water, but that could be just me!

Perhaps the answer is to make it clear that I am open to an offer which can be 'subject to satifactory demonstration of no leaks when in the water for X hours and the sails are as described'. In other words, only when a firm offer is to hand. What does the team think? Also, what is the general practice?

I have never sailed a boat prior to buying & thats 5 boats to date .
there are many many "Tyre Kickers" out there