How to turn a Traditional Motorsailer into a Sailing Boat

[dancrane]

It's a question of options. If you allow yourself the option to steer indoors, our climate ensures you'll be glad, one day soon.

If you don't allow yourself that option, something in most yachtsmen's mindset ensures they'll deny they even wanted it.

 

[MisterBaxter]

Talk of wheelhouses reminded me of this design by Phil Bolger. The deckhouse contains the galley, helm position (a gimballed seat with a seatbelt), settees and dinette. There's a double cabin forward with a queen-size bed, and a cargo hold aft with a 2,000 litre fuel tank and huge water tanks, sewage holding tank and battery bank. It has a 1" steel plate over most of the bottom so you can ground out on anything, and a centreboard to dry out upright. The mast can be lowered at anchor. The engine can be removed without any carpentry being required. Two rigid dinghies are carried on deck. The rig is large, for light airs, but can be reefed from inside the deckhouse.
Modern cruising boat design has coalesced around a surprisingly small range of hull shapes, rigs and interior layouts. There are lots more possibilities... I'd get one of these built like a shot if I had the money. I'd love to cruise Ireland and Scotland and not be restricted to the summer.

 

[dunedin]

….……..
I do not have to stand at the helm, soaked to the bone by rain and spray, calling out to the storm: "I will not go gently into that good night".
……..

That’s where things have changed hugely in recent years. I sit by (one of) the wheels when either (a) going on/off pontoon/mooring and (b) when enjoying getting the best out of the sailing, in sunshine.
Nowadays nobody has to “stand at the helm” in the rain. First sign of dampness (or if motor on) it is autopilot switched on. Even sailing, probably 90% of miles are logged with autopilot on. To me a below decks autopilot ram system is far higher priority than any interior helm option. Hand steering is for fun only.
And entirely dry and warm at front of cockpit, unless heavy rain from directly astern.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Nice project with a very successful outcome. With four sails to manage, how did that go ?

Thread drift . Makes you wonder what it was like on the open bridges of RN Russian convoys.

I have never given it much thought. Main and mizzen are self-tending, full-battened with lazy jacks. We reef back to front by dowsing the mizzen first, even though it has one reef point, the main has two, we may have reefed it once.
From Peel, IOM, to the Scillies its 270 NM. Raised all sail outside Peel harbour, took it all down 42 hrs later when we arrived at night off the Scillies. Winds from close hauled in 5 kts to 35 kts on a broad reach on approach.

Soon as we reach open water, the AP takes the helm and I have all the time in the world to play with the sails.
When that gets too much I'll start collecting stamps or have my self put down. Likely the latter.

Note on Wheelhouses: Ours is not just a steering station, we live in it, eat at the table and enjoy the views of the places we visit. We still have a cockpit and in good weather the doors open to make it one big living space. What does Moody call it? A monomaran. Well, we got one of those, without the price tag.
My biggest beef with most wheelhouse designs is that they fail to provide seating on either tack, but I fixed that as well.
The Dutch boat that lay next to us in Lerwick had the usual three arrow slits in its low deckhouse, then an enormous hard dodger that, however, only provided one covered seat on each side. To keep the heat in at 10 degr. Celsius, they had a canvas and perspex curtain. I remember sitting, perfectly civilized, at the table in our heated WH while the Dutch ate their Spaghetti off their lap. I suppose the narrow space provided teaches you to keep your elbows tucked in while eating. My Mother would have approved. But then, we like to look at the spectacular places we visit (in comfort) and not live in a basement, even in inclement weather.

 

[dancrane]

...nobody has to “stand at the helm” in the rain.

How do you judge course changes from the autopilot remote control, below decks? If you know you prefer not to be on deck at those times, why wouldn't you value having the horizon in full view all round, from a weatherproof position?

...entirely dry and warm at front of cockpit...

I sat, dry but freezing under a Centaur's fine new sprayhood one April morning while we worked to windward, hail crackling down overhead and piling like gravel in heaps on the seats. Out at the tiller, the owner just stood and swore.

Thirty minutes earlier we'd been warm in the sun, but the change made me wish (as I had expected to) that we could sit on watch indoors. It went from fun to comfortless in minutes. All the very predictable unpredictability of the British weather.

There's a covered porch outside my home but we don't sit out there on wet cold days kidding ourselves we've beaten the rain, because it's still miserable. A sprayhood doesn't begin to substitute for an inside helm.

Decades of the same debate have proven there's no chance of agreement breaking out, here. I'm only inclined to remember the old saying, "better to be in here wishing you were out there, than out there wishing you weren't."

With a wheelhouse you take your pick. I'd rather change where I sit, than change into foul-weather gear to sit where it's foul.
.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Talk of wheelhouses reminded me of this design by Phil Bolger. The deckhouse contains the galley, helm position (a gimballed seat with a seatbelt), settees and dinette. There's a double cabin forward with a queen-size bed, and a cargo hold aft with a 2,000 litre fuel tank and huge water tanks, sewage holding tank and battery bank. It has a 1" steel plate over most of the bottom so you can ground out on anything, and a centreboard to dry out upright. The mast can be lowered at anchor. The engine can be removed without any carpentry being required. Two rigid dinghies are carried on deck. The rig is large, for light airs, but can be reefed from inside the deckhouse.
Modern cruising boat design has coalesced around a surprisingly small range of hull shapes, rigs and interior layouts. There are lots more possibilities... I'd get one of these built like a shot if I had the money. I'd love to cruise Ireland and Scotland and not be restricted to the summer.

View attachment 172298

I have always admired Bolger's out-of-the-box thinking and I have a book of his designs somewhere. Alas, having made my living through a degree of aesthetic sensitivity, I find his designs to require, at times and on occasion, too much intellectual effort on my part. In the flesh, I have found some of his boats to be even more awkward than on paper. But beauty, as all such things, appears to be in the eye of the beholder.

 

[dunedin]

How do you judge course changes from the autopilot remote control, below decks? If you know you prefer not to be on deck at those times, why wouldn't you value having the horizon in full view all round, from a weatherproof position?

Sorry, I don't understand your comment. We don't have a remote for the autopilot. But rather than stand at the helm all the time, can sit where comfortable and keep watch. Many boats have large spraythoods and often windscreens which make this easy. At night keep watch sitting on bridge-deck at top of cabin steps

I sat, dry but freezing under a Centaur's fine new sprayhood one April morning while we worked to windward, hail crackling down overhead and piling like gravel in heaps on the seats. Out at the tiller, the owner just stood and swore.

Clearly a Centaur is a very old design - many modern boats have much dryer and more sheltered cockpit. And again rather than standing at helm and swearing, nowadays the autopilot can helm. Even in good weather, tend to do sail trim and navigation rather than standing and steering. Steering most fun upwind and surfing downwind, and even then pop on pilot if wat a rest.

Decades of the same debate have proven there's no chance of agreement breaking out, here. I'm only inclined to remember the old saying, "better to be in here wishing you were out there, than out there wishing you weren't."

Again perhaps a different perspective. Only one of us has the experience of being out there sailing 20+k miles in northern waters, and glad to have done it, and continue to do it - in a boat that is well suited to these waters.

 

[dancrane]

"there's no chance of agreement breaking out, here"

 

[MisterBaxter]

I have always admired Bolger's out-of-the-box thinking and I have a book of his designs somewhere. Alas, having made my living through a degree of aesthetic sensitivity, I find his designs to require, at times and on occasion, too much intellectual effort on my part. In the flesh, I have found some of his boats to be even more awkward than on paper. But beauty, as all such things, appears to be in the eye of the beholder.

Yes - he designed some gorgeous boats, but the ones I find most interesting tend to have forms drawn strictly from function. I like that myself but it's certainly not a universal taste.

 

[rotrax]

And entirely dry and warm at front of cockpit, unless heavy rain from directly astern.

Really?

In a tee shirt and shorts, in the UK Spring or Autumn?

An aft cockpit yacht cannot ever be as sheltered or warm as the huge pilothouse on our boat.

We have owned a decent sized Aft Cockpit yacht with a full enclosure.

It did not compare in any way.

One of the reasons were have our current vessel is because we spent a July in the Clyde. It was 7 degrees C!

So we fixed it.

IMHO, Sailing, like Motorcycling, is to be enjoyed, not endured..............................

 

[dancrane]

Sailing... is to be enjoyed, not endured..............................

That's it exactly.

Wheelhouse motorsailors are the smart answer to sailing for pleasure at 50° north. Sail if you want, but no part of their design hints that you ought to be sailing, because the engine isn't a poor relation in a hull devoted to slippery efficiency. So you needn't go outside en route ever, unless the weather and your mood agree. They're set up for ease rather than to navigate a lot of eccentric time-consuming challenges. I'd name mine "Tilman".

What Laminar Flow has done is miraculous, or better, because his modifications are repeatable. A genuinely rewarding, carefully-considered sailing cruiser that is also a cosseting, no-stress, very seaworthy motorboat, safe and comfortable regardless of temperature or conditions.
.

 

[fredrussell]

What Laminar Flow has done is miraculous, or better, because his modifications are repeatable.
.

Indeed, but only if you have very deep pockets. New spars, sails, bow sprit and rudder mods. When you add that lot to the initial cost of the motorsailor you could probably afford a 2nd hand sailing boat with a covered helm that had been correctly conceived at the drawing board.

 

[Refueler]

Indeed, but only if you have very deep pockets. New spars, sails, bow sprit and rudder mods. When you add that lot to the initial cost of the motorsailor you could probably afford a 2nd hand sailing boat with a covered helm that had been correctly conceived at the drawing board.

But where's the satisfaction of achieving it by own hands ?

But I have to agree. Outstanding work - but for many I do not think would or could carry it out.

Just a comment about anothers post mentioning 50 North (Dancrane) ... I sail at 57 North and actually up into the high 58's at times ... My 25 has a sprayhood (think Centaur) ... my 38 has no sprayhood ...
Summers are T shirts and shorts ... no need for hoods / pilot houses ...

But yes - that's baltic's .... not North Sea / Norway etc. So the location makes a huge difference to what a boat has ...
Boats designed in Baltics rarely have covered areas .. look at Halberg Rassy's with their 'windscreen' affairs .... with optional removable or tonneau type additions.
But get on the Atlantic side and see the Salar's and others with protective enclosures ...

 

[rotrax]

I get hard core Sailing, perhaps if First Mate and I had not spent our younger years motorbike racing we might have done some serious stuff in boats that sailed well.

In our mid 70's we are -unashamedly-travellers by water, not purist sailors.

Our choice of vessel suits us fine.

Plus, by comments made by the more mature who come aboard, it would suit many others too..............................

 

[Refueler]

I get hard core Sailing, perhaps if First Mate and I had not spent our younger years motorbike racing we might have done some serious stuff in boats that sailed well.

In our mid 70's we are -unashamedly-travellers by water, not purist sailors.

Our choice of vessel suits us fine.

Plus, by comments made by the more mature who come aboard, it would suit many others too..............................

My two boats I like may surprise with the difference between them ... but being 68 and not as sprightly as I was ...

Macwester Seaforth

Moody Eclipse 43

Yes worlds apart - but they both have one thing in common ... they can keep you out of the crap when sailing !! No wonder not so many on the sale sites ... and when they are - silly prices.

 

[Supertramp]

That's it exactly.

Wheelhouse motorsailors are the smart answer to sailing for pleasure at 50° north. Sail if you want, but no part of their design hints that you ought to be sailing, because the engine isn't a poor relation in a hull devoted to slippery efficiency. So you needn't go outside en route ever, unless the weather and your mood agree. They're set up for ease rather than to navigate a lot of eccentric time-consuming challenges. I'd name mine "Tilman".

What Laminar Flow has done is miraculous, or better, because his modifications are repeatable. A genuinely rewarding, carefully-considered sailing cruiser that is also a cosseting, no-stress, very seaworthy motorboat, safe and comfortable regardless of temperature or conditions.
.

It would be interesting to know what boat Tilman would have chosen today for his trips, especially if he had unlimited resources. I have a hunch he would have avoided excess electronics and complexity but would have had a good engine and tankage.

 

[srm]

It would be interesting to know what boat Tilman would have chosen today for his trips, especially if he had unlimited resources. I have a hunch he would have avoided excess electronics and complexity but would have had a good engine and tankage.

Correct me if wrong. I seem to remember reading (probably in YM at the time) that Tilman's last voyage was on a tug that had been converted to sail. The vessel and crew disappeared while sailing in Antarctic waters.

 

[Supertramp]

Correct me if wrong. I seem to remember reading (probably in YM at the time) that Tilman's last voyage was on a tug that had been converted to sail. The vessel and crew disappeared while sailing in Antarctic waters.

Yes, perhaps not a great advert for motorsailers! I also recall he sailed on an Australian research vessel (Panatela?) which he considered the height of luxury.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Indeed, but only if you have very deep pockets. New spars, sails, bow sprit and rudder mods. When you add that lot to the initial cost of the motorsailor you could probably afford a 2nd hand sailing boat with a covered helm that had been correctly conceived at the drawing board.

I would very much like to find my deep pockets. Perhaps I need to hunt through my wardrobe, though I am somewhat astounded how some bystander should have a better knowledge of my finances than I do.

What I do have though, are two perfectly capable hands and, at least I like to think so, the intellectual capacity to put them to good use.

We have owned this boat for 14 years and I have taken her from a near derelict to a reliable cruising boat. She is, as most of her sisters, over 40 years old and on occasion something needs to be fixed or replaced, but only after I have carefully researched the needs and the market.

When I first inquired at the Watson forum, whether anyone else had weatherhelm issues, I was invariably told that I either didn't know how to sail in the first place or that I would have to buy new sails.
I didn't, not then. Instead, I faired the deadwood and rudder and our 40 years old rags worked just fine. It didn't cost the world either.

There is hardly an improvement on this boat that I didn't do myself, including installing a new engine. We have to date spent less on our boat, including the initial purchase, than others do on a mid size car or truck. To compare that to the price of a new build, never mind a one-off, has to be ignorance in the extreme.

How to make the poor thing sail can be seen in my video. If someone needs to know the necessary moment of inertia to choose a new mast from the rummage corner of the yard or an old boat going to the tip, get in touch with me. It's free.

And here I thought, the whole point of what we have done, is that (any)one could have otheir own pint-size expedition yacht and for a modest outlay.

By the bye, there is absolutely nothing miraculous about what I did, other than consequently apply the insights for which greater minds than my own had already done the heavy lifting.

 

[fredrussell]

I would very much like to find my deep pockets. Perhaps I need to hunt through my wardrobe, though I am somewhat astounded how some bystander should have a better knowledge of my finances than I do…

I didn’t say you had deep pockets. I said that someone else doing the same as you would need them. What do you think it would cost to find A COMPLETE REPLACEMENT RIG? I’ve worked at boatyards. Nice good quality aluminium has a high value and unwanted spars invariably get chopped up and weighed in. And I bet your replacement sails are not some baggy old bloomers for a few quid from ebay? What you have done would be, for most people, a very expensive project- hence my ‘deep pockets’ remark.